Curse

FoxBat · Nov 17, 2009, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Way back around factions release, you could hit enter in AB with less than a party of four. It would pair you up with other people who entered with less than a full party. Team Arenas also had this feature (before being deleted...)

Bob Slydell · Nov 17, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Way back around factions release, you could hit enter in AB with less than a party of four. It would pair you up with other people who entered with less than a full party. Team Arenas also had this feature (before being deleted...)

AB also had a full list of 12 party members for the window, i remember seeing this in a youtube video of beta Factions. Some of the things that anet changes are pretty silly.

FoxBat · Nov 17, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

AB also had a full list of 12 party members for the window, i remember seeing this in a youtube video of beta Factions. Some of the things that anet changes are pretty silly.

12-man aegis and heal party was dumb I'll admit... then again aegis was nuked so that isn't necessarily as bad an issue now, and most abusive para stuff is earshot. Regardless the "enter freely" thing should be doable whether we have 4-man or 12-man teams.

Brother Andicus · Nov 18, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Everyone that feels that the map is balanced is running monks on the Kurzick side, right?

Playing monk is only as easy as the opposition you face.

There's 2 viable ways to keep the gate guards up.
1) Push red bars - easily overcome with a little concentrated dps
2) Bonding - Screwed over by enchant removal (and useless for the rest of the game)
I dont really count hybrid prot/heal as that viable since turtles strip single enchants easily.

I think Assassin, Derv, Necro, Mesmer and Rit all have some form of enchant strip available to them, and 4 of them are quite capable of dps as well.

Some kurzicks bring skills that are suited to the environment. When luxons finally grow enough brain power to do the same then maybe we can assess the balance of the actual game format.

Shadowspawn X · Nov 18, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

The OP is totally bias with a kurzick slant and condescending towards the luxons who win FA with regularity. I suspect the OP is not looking for balance but perhaps has a more mischievous motive?

The Black Mumba · Nov 18, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

Some kurzicks bring skills that are suited to the environment. When luxons finally grow enough brain power to do the same then maybe we can assess the balance of the actual game format.

Appearently the team in the screenshot had enough brain power, since we kept the mines red all the time and carried both turtles outside the green gate; but we lost anyway. That's because kurzicks had 5 monks spamming heals on Gunther and a gatekeeper: they don't even heal themselvels, because they will be ressed a few seconds later;

Before i maxed the kurzick title i tough FA was fine, because the turtle attack hit you hard and strip enchantments. Then i started playing on luxon side, and i noticed how imbalanced it is. Luxon, in order to win have to: keep the mines capped, snare and kill amber runners, keep the turtles alive and deal with the shitload of healers kurzick will have. That's pretty hard for a random team, considering that the average player won't leave the outpost without his shit defy pain build.

Possible solutions for balancing imo:
- increasing the time before kurzicks are resurrected, since they will be in the middle of the fight faster.
- Let the turtles shoot at the mines if they are controlled by kurzicks.
-Introducing some form of punishment for passive teams (8 monks), like stopping the progress of the weapon.

Giga_Gaia · Nov 18, 2009, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

So let me run down these laughable suggestions.
(I've omitted a couple, as I had nothing to say about them)

Yeah some of those changes are quite laughable aren't they? And yet that's EXACTLY what Anet did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prinzess of life

A Kurzick win takes 10 minutes without running any amber.
When did a game ever last 20 minutes .... if they reduced it by five a game should last 15 minutes now, learn to calculate...

Actually, the old timer required about 17 minutes without amber. Hence why I used the ~ to indicate an approximation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

The OP is totally bias with a kurzick slant and condescending towards the luxons who win FA with regularity. I suspect the OP is not looking for balance but perhaps has a more mischievous motive?

Well, I did say that the bias was intended since I wanted to "balance the perspective a little bit" as the forums lately are full of complaints from the Luxons on FA...

akio pwns · Nov 18, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

first of all, luxons DONT always lose... this is just stupid "propaganda" made by idiots so that people when looking for a guild go kurzick. Its stupid and has no proof behind it.
Secondly, whenever i monk and theres another monk on the other side(total of two)... I always win. Dont matter what builds. I run a simple WoH with other cheap heals and two anti-melee stances.
Third and most important misconception, WHEN the kurzick team has 3 or more monks... its near impossible to kill kunther if you dont have people also targeting at least 2 of the 3 or more monks.

Its defense(kurz) vs offense (lux)... lux carry more variant builds then kurz... who usually bring to the table rangers with longbows, some type of turtle killing build or heavy defense build.

Dont talk about lowering time because your bored of staying behind a gate... want a challange? go to the lux side.

upier · Nov 18, 2009, 07:30 AM // 07:30

My point with running monks and seeing how "balanced" the map is rather was that had the Kurzick ran monks, instead of the shit they normally run, they'd see how imbalanced the map is.
Most Kurzick players will think that the map is balanced because of the shit they run which in turn gives the Luxon a fighting chance.
Seriously, run monks and you'll see there is NOTHING the Luxon can do.

Or, if you have some understanding of the game mechanics you should see, even without playing, why the Kurzick have it easier.

akio pwns · Nov 18, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

id rather see most then anything a buff for luxon players. Sorta lke an effect for charging tht kurzick base. Id suggest a 2% speed, casting time, and attack speed inscrease for each level of the base you go through.

Most would be i think 8% but still is something to combat the monk parties of the kurzick side.

Mustache Mayhem · Nov 18, 2009, 06:30 PM // 18:30

played alot of fa when farming faction way back.. it was easier to play as a kurzick- used to bond one of the gates and the luxons never brought enchant removal.. so one gate ended up choking that chicken

not sure what kind of buffs and stuff they have today.. but you could win on luxon, just bring enchant strips and damage.. didn't even need the turtles

Hugh Manatee · Nov 18, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Yesterday was FA day on the Zcombat post, and I actually had a pretty decent win streak on the luxon side. There were several really depressing losses, but more victories then I'm used to(even VS 3+ monk teams). Part of it is the players here, for the most part, they genuinely suck. I mean they're terrible, they do dumb things with bad builds, and don't pay attention to whats going on around them, or what the goal of the mission is. This is why they should let players form their own parties 8 man, then enter the battle. Before the "lol 8 munks on kurz dur" crowd slams the idea, they would need to rebalance how the rest of the map works.

They need to diversify the parties that spawn with the turtles and at the mines, instead of 4 wammo noobs, give them a mesmer(shatter enchant, cry of frustration, diversion, and interrupts, p-leech or p-distract, and if we really want to be jerks, soothing images and ignorance), a necro(chillibeans, well of the profane, defile flesh and spoil victor or soul bind, and suffering) and maybe an ele that can hit behind the gates. Instead of 2 crappy rangers without elite skills or self heals that can be taken out from the parapets, give the mines a healer(like the one at the green mine) and a ranger or caster that can fight back, maybe an assassin or warrior to run out and harrass stuff. If they buff the defense at these key points, healer classes won't be able to cap and run amber. Nerfinate the turtles, but buff the party that comes with them.

They need to change the AI behavior a lot too. Fix the bugs that get them stuck on stuff, and most of all, they need to advance, and be more agressive. I have no problem with them stopping to shoot something in their range but once they fire, they should keep moving(they need a limit to how long they attack something, before moving on, like what you had in saul's bonus pack mission, the shout skill that made your AI buddies form up). The only thing that should halt their advance is if a gate is up, and their support party should be actively agro'd and fighting the gate NPCs or whatever is in the turtles path. Their argo range should be like the kournan spotters, they move ahead of the turtle, while it nukes from the rear.

Now for the kurz side. They need to add the buff from the eternal grove to the fort, it's basically a speed buff. They also need to make the gate NPCs juggernauts that will actively move out and engage foes, instead of camping a gate while being healed from behind. 2 at the outer, 3 at the inner, 4 at the green gates with kurz NPCs scattered around like they are now. With the speed buff they'd be able to move fast enough to engage effectively, and maybe add a juggernaut only skill ranged attack if they still cant.

The Kurzick NPCs between the gates, and at the keep, should spawn as well if the kurz turn in amber(like, they turn in amber to a keeper, and it spawns a few random kurz npcs to that gate. They spawn at the shrine, run out the teleporter and to their respective gates).

Basically even though it's a defensive map for the kurz they need to get punished for being exclusively, passively defensive(they should have to attack to repell the assault), while the luxon are already screwed if they're not offensive enough.

Brother Andicus · Nov 18, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Mumba

Appearently the team in the screenshot had enough brain power, since we kept the mines red all the time and carried both turtles outside the green gate; but we lost anyway. That's because kurzicks had 5 monks spamming heals on Gunther and a gatekeeper: they don't even heal themselvels, because they will be ressed a few seconds later;

Before i maxed the kurzick title i tough FA was fine, because the turtle attack hit you hard and strip enchantments. Then i started playing on luxon side, and i noticed how imbalanced it is. Luxon, in order to win have to: keep the mines capped, snare and kill amber runners, keep the turtles alive and deal with the shitload of healers kurzick will have. That's pretty hard for a random team, considering that the average player won't leave the outpost without his shit defy pain build.

Possible solutions for balancing imo:
- increasing the time before kurzicks are resurrected, since they will be in the middle of the fight faster.
- Let the turtles shoot at the mines if they are controlled by kurzicks.
-Introducing some form of punishment for passive teams (8 monks), like stopping the progress of the weapon.

Pretty bad example you chose.
Its hardly normal for kurzicks to have 5 monks. Certainly at the times I play between 0-3 is normal.
And there is no wonder you couldn't kill. Luxons are severely lacking damage. Looking at your party list you have 3 maybe 4 healers.
I also see a LOT of shambling horrors, if it were me, i'd trade every single one of them for 2 wells of profane.

So yeah, you've illustrated exaclty my point perfectly. Thanks

upier · Nov 18, 2009, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

Pretty bad example you chose.
Its hardly normal for kurzicks to have 5 monks. Certainly at the times I play between 0-3 is normal.

So what you are saying is that it's hardly normal for the Kurzick to NOT suck?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

And there is no wonder you couldn't kill. Luxons are severely lacking damage. Looking at your party list you have 3 maybe 4 healers.

And that's the issue.
You roll a monk on the Luxon side. You hope that you get a party that complements your choice.
You roll a monk on the Kurzick side. And you have single-handedly fulfilled all the required roles.
As long as there is no required active objective on the Kurzick side, the Kurzick are not punished for choosing the best option.

Edit:
@Hugh
I think the best way should be to reduce the meaning of NPCs. No environmental effects either.
Make it as clean as possible, since that is going to be the easiest way to balance.

The Black Mumba · Nov 19, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Monks have ROJ and Ritualists seems to like running crappy channeling builds. The problem arn't Luxon lacking damage, are Kurzick being able to keep alive Gunther for five minutes when 2 turtles are bombarding and the whole team is attacking him.
And btw i have seen those days a lot of Necros triying to heal or Elementalist with Woh and heal party.

If they can't balance it, they should at last revamp the rewards: 500 factions per broken gate and 1000 if you kill the architect will do the job.

Brother Andicus · Nov 19, 2009, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that's the issue.
You roll a monk on the Luxon side. You hope that you get a party that complements your choice.
You roll a monk on the Kurzick side. And you have single-handedly fulfilled all the required roles.
As long as there is no required active objective on the Kurzick side, the Kurzick are not punished for choosing the best option.

You can flip that over as well though.
You roll a E/N nuker on the Kurzick side. You hope that you get a party that complements your choice.
You roll a E/N nuker on the Luxon side. And you have single-handedly fulfilled all the required roles.

Brother Andicus · Nov 19, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Mumba

Monks have ROJ and Ritualists seems to like running crappy channeling builds. The problem arn't Luxon lacking damage, are Kurzick being able to keep alive Gunther for five minutes when 2 turtles are bombarding and the whole team is attacking him.
And btw i have seen those days a lot of Necros triying to heal or Elementalist with Woh and heal party.

The screenshot says otherwise.
The players bar is a healing bar at heart (1 healer)
Recuperation is up suggesting the other Rt is a healer (2)
The player has healing breeze on them obviously a 3rd healer or they'd be using attack skills in that situation (3)

I'll take your word for it the other is a smite monk, but discounting RoJ, the dps from the smiting line is pathetic, so i'll stick to my argument that luxons lack sufficient dps.

And like I said, 5 monks is not a normal party composition. Had you had 5 savannah heat ele's to counter it and the death necro hadn't taken a worthless bar my bet is on turtles+nukers over any number of red bar pushers

upier · Nov 19, 2009, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

You can flip that over as well though.
You roll a E/N nuker on the Kurzick side. You hope that you get a party that complements your choice.
You roll a E/N nuker on the Luxon side. And you have single-handedly fulfilled all the required roles.

So you are saying that all that the Luxon need is ench removal and damage?
That is all?
Bringing anything else is sub-par to that?

So 8 E/N are the pretty much the optimal Luxon party?
No mesmers to shut down the monks that hide behind the gates?
No monks to heal the Luxon party or the AI?

Yes?

mohni · Nov 19, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

You can flip that over as well though.
You roll a E/N nuker on the Kurzick side. You hope that you get a party that complements your choice.
You roll a E/N nuker on the Luxon side. And you have single-handedly fulfilled all the required roles.

If luxon would have a team of 8 E/N the situation would be like this: At first all goes smoothly and inner gates are down. But at the same time one kurzick kills both turtles because nobody can heal them. After that kurzick can just concentrate to luxon players and they camp in front of green gate. All eles who try to rush in get killed in few secs and even if one gets through one monk can simply use one WoH and all damage the ele can do is healed.

Brother Andicus · Nov 19, 2009, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So you are saying that all that the Luxon need is ench removal and damage?
That is all?
Bringing anything else is sub-par to that?

So 8 E/N are the pretty much the optimal Luxon party?
No mesmers to shut down the monks that hide behind the gates?
No monks to heal the Luxon party or the AI?

Yes?

Your view of optimal for kurzicks is 8 monks.
In such a scenario luxons wouldn't need healing beyond what Aura of Restoration can provide, and given 8 E/N's with nothing in the world to worry about except nuking then yeah, i'd say its fairly close to optimal.

However we all know that neither 8 healers nor 8 E/N's is actually optimal. A team with no damage output will always struggle to match the un-mitigated offence of the other team. A team with nothing but damage output will always struggle due to lack of flexibility.

BUT, given than I regularly see 2 monks on the kurzick side because they are a strong build choice, i'd expect to see 2 E/N's on the other side because they are also a strong choice.